Am I A Zionist? What The F@$K Is Going On In Palestine With Alex And Jen Shahin!

Brock Goldberg:   0:06
from the land of mystery with dreams become reality. Always listening to stories from the past, the present and the future. This is back. All right. How you guys doing?

Alex Shahin:   0:37
You were doing great. I'm doing great.

Jen Shahin:   0:39
Yeah, I'm kind of fighting off a flu at the moment that I think I'm you know, I'm pretty great. I

Brock Goldberg:   0:45
think, uh, that for me having the both of you on, uh, it means a lot. It really does. And we're gonna dive deep into some very interesting topics. And, Alex, when you said come join me for dinner with my sister and a friend of mine,

Jen Shahin:   1:02
I was like, Oh, shit, what I'm about to get myself

Brock Goldberg:   1:04
into, but but it was awesome. And getting to meet your sister. Uh, it's crazy. I see a lot of my own sister in you in the relationship that you guys have. So it's awesome. I that connect. Seriously, straight up. Not just fucking around. Um, but I I I wanna just kind of dive right into it. Um, Were you guys from

Alex Shahin:   1:28
L. A? We were born and I was born in Van Nuys. Blessed my whole life in Santa.

Jen Shahin:   1:32
Okay. Santa Clarita. So I'm gonna fact check you born in our leader? Actually, actually,

Alex Shahin:   1:38
I was born and get out of Hills Hospital. That every

Jen Shahin:   1:42
got every got a super technical, my friend. Yeah. Same. So, um, all of us all the sibs we were born in our Lita, California. But our parents are of Palestinian descent.

Brock Goldberg:   1:53
Okay. All right. Uh, how long ago did your parents moved to the states?

Alex Shahin:   1:58
Uh, the seventies. My dad came first, and then he went back and he was basically, you know, kind of looking for a wife at the time you came here, his twenties, and yet actually, my

Jen Shahin:   2:11
step in this story, right, So came in here. He came

Alex Shahin:   2:14
in here it is in his twenties, and the circumstances under which he came here to is pretty interesting, but we'll see that later. But he came out here, you know, kind of started working. His family moved out here, and then, you know, he kind of experienced the American life and realized he was ready for a Palestinian woman s o. He actually went well. He actually went to me. So he got, you know, in the old fashioned kind of way. Okay, you, uh, you get a range like you got. Hey, there's a girl over here. I want you to meet her. You know, she comes from a good family, that thing. So he went thio Lebanon, where my mom was living. She's Palestinian, but she was living in a Palestinian refugee camp over there, and he actually went to go, uh, meet my mom's sister. Whoa. Yes. So he went there with the intention of, you know, meeting my mom sister and, you know, seeing if there was something there and then he saw my mom, and he's like, Whoa, okay. Let me just Yeah, brakes a little bit. Eso he's like, No, I I want that one. So far, Um, he, uh you know, he talkto my mom's parents, and my mom was really not about it at first, but, um, I think a lot went into the decision to be open to it. Partly, you know, the opportunity also to come to America. And that happened, too. But my parents had, um, on Lee a week's worth of courtship before they decide to get married.

Brock Goldberg:   3:38
Are you serious? One week,

Alex Shahin:   3:40
One week. It was like, you know, it's

Jen Shahin:   3:42
almost like, Yeah. You know, I really want to go to the States. I thought your dad was cute and, you know, he was a little bit overconfident. So that was what I thought I could love him. E tried to have that mindset going into dating thing, this man,

Alex Shahin:   4:07
but they did the whole, you know, like the read poetry to each other. It was like, you know, it was cute from the way they talk about. It was it was much different time. It was very short,

Brock Goldberg:   4:15
for sure. I mean, my wife and I took 10 years to get married. So the crowd of one week, that's just it's truly fascinating. And they've been together for Helena.

Alex Shahin:   4:25
Yeah. So let's say, probably around 40.

Jen Shahin:   4:29
They got married in 74

Alex Shahin:   4:31
you're talking about like,

Jen Shahin:   4:33
I think they got married in 74

Alex Shahin:   4:34
45 years.

Brock Goldberg:   4:36
45 years. So after one week of courtship, uh, they've been together for 45 years. And how many kids?

Alex Shahin:   4:42
Four kids, four kids. And I think it just you know it. It goes to show when you like when you want to make something work. When you have, you have you know the circumstances where you feel like you need to make it work. But, you know, anybody can be happy for sure. Marriage Absolutely more about you know where you with yourself?

Brock Goldberg:   4:59
Yeah, absolutely. I have anything. I think it's up to the individual and just the the sheer brilliance of your parents meeting each other for one week and then lasting 45 years having four Children, Your father moving to the States in his twenties and just kind of going through everything that that they have gone through it just it blows my mind. Because in today's standards, 2020 that is not the norm by by any means or at least four American culture, right? Based in the United States, that is not an especially. We live in a day and age where people get married and divorced quicker than they can say I do. So I do find that fascinating. And, uh, for your father coming to the States, What brought him here?

Alex Shahin:   5:48
Uh, well, it's It's funny. There's so that one of the things let's just say that that was going on there because if you're familiar with you know that area Palestine Israel. Um, you know, it was kind of a necessity if you needed. If you wanted to, you know, have a better life. A za Palestinian over there wasn't easy, actually, one story that he tells that it was that he used to be an activist and he was passing out flyers all the time trying to, you know, talk about the occupation and protesting. And, you know, the Israeli authorities over there basically went to his parents, my grand parents and said, You know, if if you don't want your son in prison or jail, you get out of the country, just leave. Whoa, Christian, We come from a Christian background. So it's I mean, it's a little easier to maneuver if you're Christian versus being Muslim over there. Especially when you're applying for a visa to get out, you know? So it was little easier, I think for them probably get out than other people.

Brock Goldberg:   6:42
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I I I just find that fascinating that just because you're a Christian or your Muslim that makes it easier. Not easier. I wouldn't even imagine what that's like for the individual. I mean, me being a white male born and raised in Southern California. Um, even with shit that I've gone through, it's not even 1/10 of the stuff that your parents have faced. Um, growing up with, you know, your your parents background. How was that? I mean, was the challenging did you guys face any, uh, you know, bullshit growing up.

Jen Shahin:   7:19
Well, besides having strange snacks in our lunch, no one wanted to trade with Garnett pita bread. And that sounds amazing. Now it does. But back then, a bag of omens was not, like, definitely not like, um, yeah, well, I think growing up with parents like that was confusing. Um, I think especially because they were very confused, you know, about their own identity and and how to embrace. You know, um, I guess you could call the culture that they were living in now. So we kind of felt a little bit lost growing up for sure. Um, and I think most people didn't really understand at that time in those days, um, much about other ethnicities. So I was immediately always boxed into being Mexican. You know, so many people would be speaking Spanish to me like I am, but actually, We both know where I ended up at some point, but no. Yes. Oh, it was It was very difficult because we always kind of felt like we were trying so hard to be something else. But we didn't know what what we were. Yeah, you know, he's my parents. I think they were so traumatized by what they went through, that they were just sort of ready to start over. Absolutely. And they didn't want to put that trauma onto us. They weren't sure if we would have to deal with any of that for sure. So they tried their best to protect us by Sort of saying like, Well, this is who you are now, so just figure it out. That's incredible.

Alex Shahin:   9:00
Yeah. And it was always kind of, you know, growing up. Like, you know, you don't need to talk about Palestine is Really

Jen Shahin:   9:06
Don't worry about that. I just keep you know, don't don't bring those

Alex Shahin:   9:11
stuff that stuff up. You know, I'm really wanting to bring it up in history class all time and my mom getting mad at me for telling you about Hey, sorry I brought up. You know the policy in occupation in class today in my leisure wear talk about

Jen Shahin:   9:23
why you do this way. Not like I would learn that we have this like fire to talk about. My mom would go like a bomb at school today, came up again or with my friends of the car. Her immediate reaction was I was like, You're not allowed. It's

Alex Shahin:   9:42
like, you know, like they don't want that. The experience that they felt over there, you know, anyway, hinder us in our lives here

Brock Goldberg:   9:48
can understand

Alex Shahin:   9:49
because it's it's a much different perspective, you know, like they don't our perspective, our parents. And that's one of the things that I really actually loved about growing up, too. Not just immigrant parents, but Palestinian better parents is that I got a really keen insight into a much different perspective of what's going on in the Middle East, specifically and in the rest of the world than the average person would here

Brock Goldberg:   10:12
for sure, absolutely. And I can understand where your parents are coming from, though ST don't talk about talking about it because your father, you know, almost there could have been, you know, in prison just for speaking his mind. Speaking It's hard. Speaking of Seoul, where in the United States, for the most part, we can pretty much say whatever the fuck we want on, it's It's so different. So that generational divide of what they've been you know what they went through? Thio, Uh, what you guys have now? I mean, I I just I keep on going back that I find it amazing. So, going, going through all of that at this point in your life. What? What do you guys even doing what you guys do?

Alex Shahin:   10:56
Uh, I am a mortgage lender. So I've been in banking. Well, I would say, right out of college, I majored in finance and college finance real estate in minored in history. Um, and right out of college, I was I was a teller through college, and then I became a personal banker. And from then on, I've just been in finance, so I'm a mortgage lender, um, and find its homes

Jen Shahin:   11:17
nice. Yeah. I am a former film producer. I'm a behavior therapist now, and I also developed a virtual reality application. A good word for therapeutic practice.

Brock Goldberg:   11:31
Very nice. I like that a lot growing up, though. What? What was this something that you really envision yourself doing,

Alex Shahin:   11:40
you know? Okay, So when I was in high school, um and I, you know, the cool thing about So I'm the youngest of my family, the youngest of four. And I'm the only one I think that had that got to spend the most time with my mom because my parent, my siblings, when they were younger, both my parents worked. And then when I hit a certain age, my mom kind of like you stopped working and just careful time homemaker, and so she got drilled it into me like, Hey, you wanna be like an investment banker. I don't bother the things, the things you want to do, you know? And so it was like talking numbers and financing that kind of thing. And, you know, there's two things that I and it's cool because I think that I'm on the track of what I envisioned at least in high school where, um, you know, I thought I was gonna be invested banker at a college that did not have I. But I always said, you know, I want I want I want to work in finance My true passion is actually teaching. I love to teach whatever it is anything that I know, whether it's a subject history or just how to do something that I know. How do you like that? I just like to explain for sure concepts to people that easy, but that I could explain it. Get the music's. Once somebody understands what I'm trying to teach them, it's a it's a that's right order dangling. So absolutely And I do that my job, which is cool because, you know, not everybody understands finance now and home mortgages. So when I get to talk to somebody and explained it to them so they understand it and they're like, Wow, you know, no one talked to me that way. No. Or explained it that way. Thanks for taking the time. Definitely, that's just would like to do. And that makes me good at what I do.

Brock Goldberg:   13:07
I think it's I think it's really important what you do in the aspect of educating right, because in the American school system, we really don't do that. We don't set our students up for the real world way, just kind of, uh, just copy paste, copy paste copy paste and being ableto you know, here people say, Hey, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about and then you having the sense of be like Okay, well, this is how we do it and break it down debt by bit. It makes the world of a difference for for that individual. What about you?

Jen Shahin:   13:45
What was the question? I have no idea. No? Well, I ve our behavioral therapist. Film producer always wanted to do that. Yeah, for sure. You know, I think like Alex mentioned my mom, you know, pushing him into that I have to say I mean, I don't think we have for me, my experience with my parents was a lot different. My mom was just totally my biggest fan. She's like, whatever you want to dio do it. And her dream for me was to have a talk show with some years I'm here to take notes and steal your But I know she always wanted me to be in the field of media film producing, so I did. D'oh. You know what I wanted to dio And she loved that so But, you know, uh, I don't know how much you know about the industry. It seems like quite a bit. That is a lot like being a therapist on the Saturday You see, he is a lot like so much psychology involved. And it just came very natural to me, naturally. And I had a background in it already, and I had a lot of people pushing me into that field, so it kind of came to me. But then I started hitting a lot of walls and therapy and feeling very frustrated and realizing it was because I feel like the tools and the resource is we have are still kind of archaic moving into, you know, more progressive for treatment. Plan for it, for anyone. Really? So I thought I heard about V. R with PTSD and, uh, using with a lot of cancer patient and something that I thought, Why aren't we using this for people who have social impairments and other things? Anyway, why are we using it everywhere? So, yeah. So I decided to kind of marry my love for film and therapy and create something that I thought could help people on a more global level

Brock Goldberg:   15:30
for sure, I absolutely You know, I just kind of keep on going back to you, to your parents, right? Everything that they went through and then to be able to instill Ah, the the thought to just fucking go for it. Follow your dreams. Do what makes you happy. So many people around the globe just kind of get stuck in this routine. And so for your parents, everything that they went through passing that down to the next generation, it's just amazing.

Jen Shahin:   15:59
Yeah, well, I think part of to what what inspired me was their pain. Like I felt like, this is a tool I could eventually bring to, you know, war zones And, you know, other sort of conflicted areas in the world for sure. And yeah, I mean, it was like you said is kind of that, like seeing their fire, like live vicariously through us, but also thinking, I wish it could have helped you with something like that.

Alex Shahin:   16:22
You get that? I really, you know, took from them. That's helped me, you know, just in life. And get there was that they just worked all the time like they got here. And from the moment data had, like, three jobs and he put himself through school while having a family just got his master's. Really, he just worked nonstop. You know, I'd be sitting around, like, even in college, or like when I had my first full time job. But I'm just saying, like, family, like I would think back to just like how if I'm not doing something productive than I'm wasting time, because you need to be always doing something productive, you know? And so I think that by also thinking that we've also in our family to like siblings, we really appreciate leisure time. At the same time, Thio know howto like I, and then I feel guilty for not doing anything. It's important, though, that there's that, you know, just guilt you live with two just for E. I don't know if it's it's having a Catholic upbringing or having an immigrant upbringing. But guilt is always somewhere involved in the mix there.

Brock Goldberg:   17:19
No, no. For everything on and having your parents, uh, you know, come from where they came from being with the, you know, Christian background. I just heard you say Catholic. So, uh, we brought up Christian.

Alex Shahin:   17:35
It was I know I was I was raised Catholic, I don't know. And it could just be approximately 12.

Jen Shahin:   17:41
Chose for us in a way, because my mom was raised Roman Catholic. My dad was orthodox and because they wanted us to go to a good school because growing up, we you know, we we were what? We weren't always middle class. Let's put it that way. So they were afraid of the school systems. There was a Catholic school my mom felt comfortable with the Catholic Church does She was raised that way, and they sort of just made that decision to raise us Catholic, for sure. But I think after we got confirmed, they just said it was like up to you.

Brock Goldberg:   18:11
That was It knows it. And at this point in your life, um, does the Catholic upbringing is it, uh do you guys still practice it? Do you guys still, you know, pushed forward in it?

Jen Shahin:   18:22
Or is it right before we're about to crash my car, I suddenly become Catholic. Oh, God, please help me. I

Alex Shahin:   18:30
don't know. Somehow it's it's funny, you said, because I always go back to saying a prayer e really like

Jen Shahin:   18:37
like I'm going to get my Sorry to say this, but I'm going for, like, an STD. It's been my whole life. Theo, do this salad I promised. You know, it's so classic that way, but yeah.

Alex Shahin:   18:59
Uh, yeah, I know. I would say, though we're we're very far from religious. Um, you know, other than those moments. Yeah, but But, you know, I think Jennifer Jennifer, your public along has been confirmed. The family. Really? I don't know. Maybe, but I don't. And I just remember having to go to Sunday schools. And then Mom doing my homework for

Jen Shahin:   19:19
me was like, Someone's got to do is go. He's going todo memories of my mom doing our homework because she couldn't deal with, like, embarrassment of Max factor.

Alex Shahin:   19:36
She probably did like that, like the majority of our elementary

Jen Shahin:   19:40
pressure. No way. We're so bad at them.

Alex Shahin:   19:43
You should be happy I got the

Jen Shahin:   19:45
Oh, Brock, You you said earlier is kind of why I like she She didn't have them. And she grew up in a camp in Dubai, which is above baby. And she was treated like dogs. Shit for being Palestinian by the Lebanese. It wasn't any better there. I think she didn't have these. What she thought were, you know, like opportunities as a child to really learn things in a creative way. And so I think she actually was enjoying herself like this was fun for her. Wow, this is what it's like. So So I think it was that. And then also, yeah, not wanting us to bring home and bring any shame onto their for sure on.

Brock Goldberg:   20:25
And that's and that's such a good point that you say, You know, the shame, the guilt going through that now, like everything that you guys have gone through, Um, when you guys make your decisions, when you guys make your choices, is there any type of you know, just kind of Jame guilt that if when it's your time to have kids that you think that would something that you'd pass down?

Alex Shahin:   20:45
Yeah, I would say Guilt is something that I've had to like work through, like, you know, just, um, it's It's like a way of, of raising, like, say, if I wasn't issues, there's there's better ways than to use guilt till I get you for sure, kid, to do something. You know if there's also a lot of worse ways to do something 100%. I'm not complaining about that, but But when I when I make my decisions and when I feel certain things, I realize that there's there's a level of or like some some sort of guilt influence decisions. And that's something that probably over the last couple of years, is really like I've really noticed. And then you have have changed

Brock Goldberg:   21:21
for sure. Absolutely. It's like really noticing, Um, our weakness, our flaws, whatever, Whatever it is inside of us. And, ah, you know, we get to a certain age and if you can really recognize those you know, as I've gotten older, I try to pull all my bullshit to the front. You know, I tell my wife called me out on my shit 24 7 Say it right then and there. And I used to be the type of person where I was like, you know, fuck you. I don't want to hear that shit. But then something changes right, and you either face it or you don't you go to the left, you go to the right, and we have so many decisions and choices throughout our life that we can go one way or the other way. And, um, just the story that you guys were sharing with me with your parents and your upbringing. What was it like having four siblings? Cause I had three and it was fucking chaos.

Alex Shahin:   22:10
So you won't think

Brock Goldberg:   22:11
I'm one of 31 of

Alex Shahin:   22:12
three U. S o I middle child. I loved it personally. I love having siblings, but was What's very interesting dynamic is that we're all, like, roughly four years apart from the youngest and my brothers, the oldest. There's two of the girls in between. There's about 12 years of difference. But for some reason, you know, I was very close to my brother, growing up to, like, from my my adolescents ages, you know, he was someone who, you know, I looked up to a lot, and luckily for me, he lived at home for a while, so I got to have a cool relationship. That's ah, you know, I got toe, you know, see what to do, what not to do for sure. Um and I think being the youngest to make it easier for me to, like, have more freedom, you know, with my without with Jennifer and Billy. You know, my parents being so young too. And, like, stressed out, probably all the time. They probably

Jen Shahin:   23:02
way always tell Alex that he got it so good because my parents were, like, always giving, you know for sure and whipped all the time. And by the time they're just tired. Just done by fucking would have Thio. There was a level of

Alex Shahin:   23:20
resentment, I think a little bit for a while.

Jen Shahin:   23:22
Sure. That's so funny. I think I resented you. I just didn't really know you which we talked about.

Alex Shahin:   23:30
Yes. Oh, that's funny, because her and I didn't really have a close relation about all Until are like so I got to, like, 25.

Brock Goldberg:   23:36
Wow. Yeah, that's incredible. I mean, because what is the age gap between the trick in

Alex Shahin:   23:40
eight

Jen Shahin:   23:41
years? Eight years? Eight years? So that makes sense,

Alex Shahin:   23:45
though. Just just just to give everybody a physical appears I'm the I'm the biggest in my family on dso public because of better nourishment. Yes, but s So, uh, uh uh I'm I'm kinda viewed by some of my siblings as more of a older brother. Bigger brother, you know, for some reason, I think it's

Jen Shahin:   24:02
three older brother. The older brother sometimes says, You're my other brother. Think bigger,

Alex Shahin:   24:11
but also just I don't know. I think I think, um, I like I just take on their certain things about me that I have to take on responsibility for others in my family. And you know what? I know that I just kind of like being that big brother role to

Brock Goldberg:   24:24
for sure, absolutely, said education.

Jen Shahin:   24:26
Alex likes to feel like he's taking care of people in order for him to feel safe. I think it's a safety thing to like If he's got everything in under control and he can help or whatever, then there's no uncertainty. There's no chaos and stuff, absolutely kind of nice to have that around. But then I'm always like who's looking after you

Alex Shahin:   24:44
zero cool cause I had with my sister Melissa. She's the one between Jennifer and I were looking for his work. I was really close to her when I was really young, like I was like, you know, Ford eight or something like that. We were really close and then, you know, she became a teenager and had hormones Esso. And that's when than me. My brother had a really close relationship, and that was more than like, up until, you know, my teenage years and getting to college. And then it wasn't until, like, after college that Jen and I started getting really close And that, unsurprisingly, happened to coincide with relationship issues. And I have my first relationships, and then Jennifer is like, I can handle this shit.

Jen Shahin:   25:25
I think I think I was also not around a lot like I was just kind of I flew the coop really early on and, like, just had I don't know, just Yeah, leave you like

Alex Shahin:   25:40
San Francisco when I was in, like, high school or no younger guys think

Jen Shahin:   25:45
it was 2003 or four high school. I was? Yeah, like, pieced out later. Later bitches on. And I think that yeah, I think that Alex kind of like that, too, in a way. Like he was one know about my experiences where it was, what I was doing, all the stuff. He was drawn to that, and I thought, Oh, this kid's taken an interest. Please, child, come. And so I really like that. And really, you know, brought the curiosity out. Me too. So, like you Tell me what about you? We just bonded on the knoll. A sudden felt like, Wow, this he's a lot like me. I never knew it my whole life. He's a lot like me. And I actually saw a lot of the struggle. I went through my parents. I saw him going through a CZ. Well, I was kind of forcing me to face that, too. So we aren't We actually talked about yeah, our relationship with our siblings a lot or our parents and how they were doing the same things to us because of their trauma. But it having a very different impact on us because of who we are. Just people. Absolutely. And that bringing us together to we bonded through that a lot

Brock Goldberg:   26:51
for sure. Connecting on connecting on those issues. And it makes sense. You're eight years older. So when you were, you were 10. Alex. She was 18.

Alex Shahin:   27:07
Experiences. It didn't have much of that until we were older. It's like until I had a little more life experience that you start bonding and relating to each other and and Yeah, I did always get to Jen because she just was always doing something big. Like she was traveling. She was living her life and like you, no more so than you know, anybody I would say. Like in relation to my other siblings. I view my other two siblings more like either peers of younger siblings. Where have you? Jen is really like my older sister that I has helped, you know,

Jen Shahin:   27:35
there are some things are going to make you burn this, Lee. No. Yeah. And also, I have to be honest. Like I think it was my my activism. My my love for Palestine and, you know, the end. The desire to tell the story of the housing people. Alex was like, This is what I wanted. Thio. Next time you go to rally, I wanna come. Next time you talk on this point, I want to be there. And then it I was like, Yeah, sure, whatever. But then it kind of came to point where Alex was so invested in it that I was turning to him be like, Look, I've gotta do this huge presentation. I've got artists coming in from Palestine. I'm hosting. I was hosting an event in London. And I turned to Alex for my opening speech at this event and was, you know, he stays like the student became the master thief teacher. I think that that also kind of bonded us was our sort of mutual. Absolutely interesting, that's

Brock Goldberg:   28:32
for sure. You live. You don't live in London, but you live in England, Correct?

Jen Shahin:   28:37
I live in London.

Brock Goldberg:   28:37
You live in Lunda. Sorry.

Jen Shahin:   28:39
Yeah. Yes, Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Brock Goldberg:   28:42
You were in San Francisco. London.

Jen Shahin:   28:46
Well, actually, my job brought me to London. So I was I was, um, you know, kind of head hunted by an agency to work with a very specific type of clientele for basically high profile. So, um, I had already a background in name for myself in l. A Working with industry types, Weekit's profiles, you ever annoying? No names dropping off the table, but yes. So I had already established myself in l. A. And, um, somehow my name traveled there and yeah, that was like, I just I don't know. It was it was really strange rock because I never saw it coming. And I was in between clients, and I thought Okay. I had an offer in Boston, Um, one in Maryland so that, you know, you know, and then And the London offer. So I just Obviously my mom was like, You better take that, you know? But it was like, Yeah, and then now, of course, when I got my now I'm a a citizen citizenship. It's kind of nice that, you know, I come from refugee parents, and I could be like, What's up? Have we? Oh, yeah. So that was kind of a big deal for me because of that? Yes. It's like, you know what? All you did and you worked so hard already, it wasn't for nothing. Now I can say I have, you know, to citizenship. I'm traveling and I'm happy. And I think that makes them really happy, You know for sure. Now they never want me to move back or don't come to your portions. Keep pushing. Yes. Yeah, but

Brock Goldberg:   30:22
But it is. It's It's incredible. It's incredible. I mean, t go through everything that you guys have gone through. Um, and and now to be at this point in your life, you've got dual citizenship. Dual citizenship, living in London. Ah, following your dreams pushing forward, I take away, you know, your your parents and everything they've gone through Just to be able to get to this point in your life, most people don't ever get to see that. And so don't stop. Continue to push, continue to move forward. What are some of the next things that you see yourself? You know, working because the other day we're talking about for two reality. Um, how does that kind of plain thio, You know, everything that you do.

Jen Shahin:   31:04
Um, yeah. I don't know what the thing is. You know, Brock, I really suffer from imposter syndrome. Do you know what that is like? Have imposter syndrome right over. We're thinking, like, you know, I'm not gonna achieve this. Who am? I don't have the qualifications for that. This is mental. But like, you know, I think for the first time in my life, I got I pushed through that, and I am now like I could do everything. And I think what's important for me are two things, and one is, as I mentioned before, it's being able to help people on a much more global level, you know, and and being able to make a difference. Leave my stamp sort of. In that sense, I really just want to help a lot of people navigate in this world Rocky, and the 2nd 1 is to bring more awareness to theon Peixian and and the people who have died trying to do that. Just trying to bring awareness is scary. And I and I think this is why my mom's always scared. You know, it's not a joke. Like, you know, people who try to expose the truth are often targeted, and often times they're attacked and they were gone. So I'm not trying to go to that dark place, But we'll get there, I promise. So I feel like as I'm getting older, this there's this feeling that my life purpose is about truth. Um, and so I think for me, my focus is gonna be this virtual reality application that I think will be able to help a lot of people and making more films and more art. Um, and bringing more artist working together too, you know, make make it more known about about what's happening in Palestine for sure. So yep. So maybe moving back.

Brock Goldberg:   32:54
Yeah. You think that's on the deck

Alex Shahin:   32:57
about Europe, that about that going into you know what we're doing?

Jen Shahin:   33:02
Well, well, well. I thought I did just talk about it, but I'll talk about it some more. What is the? So the virtual reality app is developed is designed to be used on the Oculus. Go? Yes, and it What it does is it puts, um, young adults. It's aimed to to help young adults on the autistic spectrum. It puts them in social situations that can be really difficult. I even think for neuro typical sze to to get through in a choose your own adventure style. It's very cinematic. We use live actors so you might be at a party. Um, and you'll have one minute thio acclimating or acclimatize. Um, and in that time you were able to like if you're at a barbecue, you might hear your coach or your therapist say no. That girl, she's on her cell phone. She's probably not someone you want approach right now. Or don't eat those hot dogs. They're raw or don't drink from that copter is probably someone else's alcohol in there just like that. Then you will go into a situation like may be dealing with public display of affection. It's a lot of our patients really struggled with that at parties, so they might be right in front of a couple making out. You might be right in front of a couple making out and someone else kind of tryingto distract you. And if you don't have the appropriate gaze, you'll be prompted where to turn your eyes. No way. And once you've passed this level, the next level would be the correct response in the correct amount of time. So the screen will pause and you'll have three options. One being pro social, one being antisocial and one being, um, awkward. So that 11 might be so the guy might stop and look at you. Who's making out with the girl and say, What's your problem? Why are you looking at us? And so one option might be like I smell hot pockets. I love that answer that. I'm gonna say that next time you're scared to even say we have green

Brock Goldberg:   35:03
apartments. Love it. I'm gonna use that.

Jen Shahin:   35:06
Please. D'oh are awkward. Options are always the best. That's the WiFi password on a date or something. But but And that or the other one could be Or just a stop and stare. Keep looking. And then the other one is, you know, apologize and talk to the person next to them or tournament. So based on what you choose, you go right into that outcome and we try to make the outcomes as intense, like intensely, you know, call in sick, waiting as possible or intensely rewarding as possible. And if it's awkward, it's just hard to read so we can teach them. This was hard to read because you were probably being awkward, for sure. And then we could have, like, other options. Well, let's so. And then after this, we d'oh, we offer what's called a unique curriculum. Okay, so if you know someone has their own specific issues, that's not in our standard curriculum. They can contact us. You can tell us what the problem is. We read their case, and then we create that that world for them. Whoa! Huh? That's incredible. Yeah, and I guess the dream is taking it to real time. So that would be the dream for me. So basically, yeah, you could just after you've mastered the standard curriculum. You can go into a designated space for this with maybe one technician and a therapist. And you just wear your packs and you go into the world that's designed for you to practice in real time. And Tasha, is

Alex Shahin:   36:27
that like a kind of World of Warcraft situation with a couple playing

Jen Shahin:   36:31
with? Exactly Yeah. So, uh, yeah, we would recommend that you go in with a, you know, an accredited or certified licensed therapist story on. And then after that, you know, after maybe one or two successful trials, that's wow,

Brock Goldberg:   36:48
that's amazing.

Alex Shahin:   36:49
I think that's like the future, for sure. Everything all of it, like just fully integrated,

Jen Shahin:   36:54
were behind. If you ask me like I think if this isn't happening right now, e get it. It's definitely headed there. Maybe not so much for therapy, which is annoying or for helping. Like I said, people in conflict it areas.

Alex Shahin:   37:07
But I like the idea of creating a safe but ultra riel scenario for shitting on the spectrum toe educate, get, learn about how to be socially told me. This is like the best thing you can get to actually having thrusting them

Jen Shahin:   37:21
into Brock. Actually, he he asked me a really good question, I think is worth mentioning. Which it would be amazing to reverse that and have neuro typical sze in there to see what it's like. Yeah, absolutely autistic spectrum, right? For

Brock Goldberg:   37:35
sure people, just that they do not understand. If you don't know someone that as autism or just ever been around it, you just can't understand or relate Thio individuals that you have this and so being able to create something like this on both sides, I just I find it so fascinating. And, you know, I'm a big proponent for Oculus, and I know where that direction is going. It's ah, it's incredible. And so for you to be able to be, do this be a part of a I just kudos to you, because this is where, um, these new emerging technologies are gonna help transform society in the future and give people are real understanding toe How, um, remind not all be the same. And our brains all might be different. But to really relate and see through that individual's point of view, it's what we need. We live in a day with, you know, mass shootings and all of this fucking shit going on, especially in the States, right? And, um, it just it blows my mind. I had, um ah, client of mine cut. I've been cutting his hair for a long time, and, um, he has Asperger's and, uh, really great kid. He's like, 23 years old, and it was right after, um, Saugus High School got shot up in a couple of people, died and in, you know, the really fucked up part about it is that I knew it was gonna happen. You know, we all think and Santa created to bubble, and it's not Life is just it's just not that weight. And so when it happened here, um, you know, I was just obviously talking about it, and he opened up to me in a way that just kind of put my mouth on the floor. And he goes, you know, one of one of the big reasons that you know this happens, you know, a lot and I could just speak from my own experience is, um I remember being in high school and I was that kid in the back of the class. I was the kid that was made fun of all of the time. And it was just a select few people that that made fun of him. But he goes, I remember going home and there was a few times, right, really contemplated this because I wanted to go to this school and shoot that fucking place up. And he goes, the reason waas it goes for me. It wasn't these individuals hurting me. I wanted everyone to feel my pain. And I I you know, for me, I man I mean, I appreciate that he shared that story me and it's given me a newfound perspective. And so what you're creating, you know, through V r for individuals with autism reversing that so people can actually take a peek into this world. It's just educating and just fuck I I want these things to be more out in the open. Bring this to the front. Let's stop fucking putting a blind eye behind it. And so thank you so much for doing what you do.

Jen Shahin:   40:38
So totally So it's called social wise. Check it out, socialize social wise, you know, like socialize. But why's instead website? Yeah, there is all share it with you, but yeah, it's socialized br dot com, and right now it's just being made available, uh, for professionals. Okay. But if you want it, you just can You can get it for free through the website right now. If you are a practicing therapist, you know, check it out. Okay. So thank you for letting me share. That is really important.

Alex Shahin:   41:14
Yeah, that was a really sorry

Jen Shahin:   41:17
I'm listening to you. You know, it I just makes me think of. So you know, many of the students that I've helped and, you know, it's it's it's a sad story, and it shouldn't be like this anymore. And so, yeah, I mean, it just makes me when I do this right now. Absolutely. No, I get it. But you just

Brock Goldberg:   41:39
keep on pushing what you're doing, and you'll be able to take this for so many different aspects of life, you know? And thank you for Shane and thank you for, you know, being being a part of this revolution of change. We we need this. We need people to stand up and say enough is enough. Right? Um, so thank you very much. Absolutely handsome man over there. you know, the very first time I met you, I was cutting hair. Ah, at a wedding and no style in people's hair, right?

Alex Shahin:   42:13
Yeah. Yes. Oh, you were. It is a mutual acquaintance is actually a co worker of mine. Who I think you knew him through. Maybe, uh, his brother in law something. Paul and, um And you were cutting his hair on his wedding day. And he happened to invite me up to you know, where he was getting ready. And I was cool. Honor to because, you know, we haven't been friends for not a terribly long time, but he invited me to his wedding and that I was excited, and I got there, and it was really cool. Everybody was drinking, and I saw him cutting. And then, um and then I saw I saw you cutting his hair. I don't know how the conversation started.

Jen Shahin:   42:50
A love story. You

Alex Shahin:   42:54
start, you started. Uh, what would do that to another? And I was talking to you, and, um I don't know if it was You do have a necklace that you have. Because I did it. Yeah. I never seen that Tuna. Okay, He's Jewish. and that is probably gonna be a conversation. You know, I at this point in my life, I have a lot on a Jewish friends, and I'm very, you know, open and understanding of all sides, of course, speaks. I have nothing against that. But you and I were talking. And then we started talking politics yesterday, and you were very, you know, inquisitive and very open. And we start talking about Afghanistan, Iraq and the cultural politics. And we were just going over, and I remember I remember, you know, his name was Jonathan. Got the whose wedding it was. He looks over. Oh, yeah. I forgot to tell you guys love each other.

Jen Shahin:   43:41
Okay? It's so

Brock Goldberg:   43:45
funny. Paula Paul said the same thing before I even went there. And I was like, Who's Alex? I don't fuck. This guy is at the end of the time, we're freaking sitting there bullshitting, chatting. It was just It was love at first sight.

Alex Shahin:   43:55
So yeah, and then I remember that you were, like, you know, that we should tell the guy beer together sometime and talk. And then So it was probably like, I don't know, maybe five or six months later than and that and that was I finally had. So I've had, like, you know, very cheap haircuts. My whole I was in Dallas on, like, a business trip. And I was like, I need to get a diligent haircut for this trip. So assumes I land there. I find this like, a really nice barber. He cuts my hair, and then I realized, Wow, there's a big difference between a $20 Erica and like, a $50 then So I was like, Oh, I'm abroad Coats. Here, let me hit him up. And so I was like, I need a new barber. And so I hit you up. Okay, Can I come get your hair cut? And, um, you know, you have this awesome studio in your house, and it's it's like, uh, cool setup. He's got, like, a refrigerator back there. Please, that beard. Second, Hey, it's funny because, you know, the first time we could inherit ends up turning into a two and 1/2 and half talking session with politics and philosophy so normal. So it was cool. And I was like, Man, I really I really enjoy talking this guy, but Also, I need to make sure I don't plan appointment after this video on BitTorrent story. Yeah, so I just kind of in the future. I was anticipating you. Okay, I'm gonna be there for two or three hours. But every time we chatted, it's always been just

Brock Goldberg:   45:19
not it's it's been fantastic. And for me, hair has introduced me to so many amazing people. I mean, we wouldn't be sitting here today. All right, You know, that conversation simulated a haircut and then, you know, not now we're here, you know, all this time later. But I always found it fascinating. You know, the stories that you shared with me about, you know, your life, Palestinian on Israeli conflict and just geopolitical issues. And for me, I'm a big, you know, I don't know. I'm the type of person that I like to get into deep intellectual paste conversations, and, um and it's just how I've been, uh, you know, I guess my whole life I remember as a kid looking at my father, and he would do the same thing. And I'm like, What the fuck is this guy doing talking for, You know,

Jen Shahin:   46:07
34 hours way grew up. So it's so

Alex Shahin:   46:15
the joke. The joke used to be like like, you know, American Pastime is baseball, you know, poker. You are just like

Jen Shahin:   46:24
politics, politics, politics, you know, actually, to be honest, it turned me off to politics because of that, because I was young and I wasn't broken down for me. And I was like, No, no, no, no. And then growing, you know, up and understanding. I regretted. But, you know, I wasn't listening, paying more attention, and I felt like that was so That was time wasted, almost, you know. So yeah, I can see why you took it. Because when you find someone like her who has that sort of familiarity, I guess it's kind of familial that you would connect because it's like, Yeah,

Alex Shahin:   46:57
yeah. The biggest difference is I think that I found with you and that you will enter my life that is, comported. It's not just parroting, you know, like the points and sides of like, you know, right versus left. It's having a deep understanding of what is actually going on and being willing and open to talking about all sides. Of course, absolutely not just you know, just sticking to the one side because it's me versus you. It's like our side, your side. And that's just what we and I mean, not to get into a broader thing. But that's what's going on course. Just like everybody is just like my sides, right, your sides. That's it,

Brock Goldberg:   47:31
of course. And no one's willing to just kind of put the ship at the forefront and say, Hey, you know, sometimes, right? And sometimes I'm wrong. It's like you're either left or the right. But there's no down the middle, right in American politics, right? Especially it's like, you know, Republican Democrat, right, left and for for me, as I've gotten older, it's like That is not how life is. It's not black versus white. There's so many fucking shades in between. And I don't care if you voted for Donald Trump like at the end of the day, if you're a good person, if you have, um, you know, just that what it comes down to is like a good person, a good heart shit, right? I can always take something from someone, Um, and we get so stuck into our tribes. It's either this way or that way. And if just speaking with you, you've opened up my eyes so much to so many different topics, right? Really? Share him with me. What is going on in the Palestinian Israeli conflict? What? Why

Jen Shahin:   48:32
do you think that you're like that? Versus others? Don't you think it's your parents that we're very open minded? But why do you think that you're like? Because I find that two people say that people are That's a learned behavior, but I don't think so. I think our parents were sometimes stones had he starts opinions about the baby, sometimes uninformed, even. And still would fight against that, of course. But what?

Brock Goldberg:   48:53
What? What is it? Theater net? No, I'm just joking

Jen Shahin:   48:56
about it. But I know who friggin

Brock Goldberg:   48:59
knows. Right? Um, for me, it was the longest. For the longest time. My whole life I just buried ship, buried ship, buried shit. If someone called me out on something, it was like, Fuck you, dude. And then I got to this point in my life where I started introducing, um, hallucinogens still aside and LSD. Andi really started.

Jen Shahin:   49:25
It's true.

Alex Shahin:   49:28
It that's the thing about. And if anybody's read up on, You know how psilocybin works. And I I remember this was this was part of, you know, my journey. So Simon was part of the journey that I had that really, you know, was it was one part. But it was a very important part of opening my mind and evolving because it gets you outside of your subjective brain, where you already have opinions on everything. It shuts it down. And it makes you able to take a step back and look at things at a very objective. And outside of your normal perspective,

Brock Goldberg:   49:59
Absolutely, absolutely. I go so deep inside and I never, ever you know, I think alike. I'm always have the top, always been second guessing myself, probably on too much shit. But what silly Simon has done is it's opened up parts of my brain. It's allowed me to look from the outside in at a new perspective on life. And so if you ask me like, well, what's different? It's I don't know if that's what I can point it, too. But for sure, I can say, you know, my upbringing. It was either this way or that way. You know, my my dad always preached you. I deserve respect just because I'm your fucking dad. And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter who you are. You have to give respect to get respect and it and that's my opinion. And you could think that I am wrong, right? Just because they're your parents know you have to meet in the middle, and I I was put through a lot of shit, you know, and I just kind of started making the decisions early on. And then when I re introduced, uh, you know, so assignment into my life. Um, probably 27 28. I'm 33 now. My brain started to evolve, and I started to read more. Listen a lot more podcast, um, and maybe pull away from social media to I'm not a huge social media person unless it's for business. I'm not I I just I'm just not And so for me, the information that I get is the information that I seek, right? So that that that's kind of how I became. I can't say that's how I became who I am. But that's really where my brain started to change and evolve and I think it's really important to have an open perspective on life, right? Eso I'm sure people listening to you like you'd fuck unusual sound. How dices. Um, when we started talking, you know, about the Palestinian Israeli conflict. I didn't know fucking anything I shared with you that I was going on birthright. Right? And when you started opening your mouth, right, I I was just kind of blown away about the atrocities that are going on, especially everything that, um, you know, the You know, my people, the Jewish people have gone through in their own life to be able to cause this on an other, Another group of people on growing up. I'm sure you guys, you know, heard it all Your parent, you died was an activist A what is going on at this current point? Um, in the Israeli Palestinian Palestinian Israeli conflict.

Alex Shahin:   52:51
And I also, you know, I can't say enough about how there is a clear difference between you know, being Jewish and being Zionist. Because the biggest supporters that really make the biggest impact for Palestine are Jewish people like Jewish Voice for Peace is an organization that is one of the most vocal, you know, anti Zionist organizations that really make an impact on bringing awareness to what's going on over there. So even when I was in college, I was part of the students were just in Palestine. Um, I became part of that because I I I read in the I read an article in the Sunday I want to see said, and it was an article about what was going on in 2009 which was, um, um e I forget what the name was Operation cast lead. It was the the first time after having Gaza being under siege that that Israel had launched ah, huge offensive in Gaza and just massacred. You know, I want to say hundreds of Palestinians at the very least, but But I am a marine this really well eloquent article by by someone as it was Joseph Glass everything at the time. And so I gotta meet this guy. And so I went over and met him, and he was running Aah! Students for Justin Palestine thing. And he was Jewish, and he was just white guy. And I was like, Wow, that's so cool like, and I ended up joining the group. And it was It was, Yeah, he He was a bigger Africa than I was at the time, because it coming from, you know, my upbringing. You know, I was always don't talk about this stuff, too. And I was wanted, but and so that really opened my eyes until, like, how many like, who is really fighting for this cause? And, you know, I mean, I mean, at the end of the day, what's going on is, um, you know, there are There are people for the last, I guess the Palestinian people for last, since you could say 1948 who have been living as at best, second class citizens at worse prisoners. Um, I mean, it's I guess it's the question is where to start in that in that whole topic. But, I mean, if we want to start with just going on today, I mean, you have people who you know, they they I guess

Jen Shahin:   54:59
they're basically living in an open air president.

Alex Shahin:   55:01
Yes, So I mean, there's there's Gaza and there's the West Bank. And then there's the refugees. So you have Gaza right now since 2006 which is unopened air prison in the sense that they cannot leave Gaza. They get restricted on what? How much, literally, literally. They put on a diet of how many, how much food and calories can come in. They're living in squalor because they're they're water treatment plants of open bomb. Their power plants are running at 40% or less because they can't get fuel. And they're living in absolute squalor and 40% employment because they're being blockaded on all sides. They're located on the border with Israel. They're blockaded at sea. They can't go more than a few miles off the coast for fishing. And and believe or not, they're also blockaded on the Egyptian side because the Egyptian government's justice complicity in this, um, in this siege that's been going on since 2000 and I want to say seven, which is 12 years. So you have people living in Children living in Gaza are 12 years old. You have never, ever seen outside of Gaza because I'm not allowed to leave. And there have been three attacks on Gaza that have just devastated not only the infrastructure of the economy, the morale of the people But somehow I don't know how they resist and they have not capitulating. That's the ultimate goal of this siege is now is to is to get them to just except a fate without whatever given to them. You accept it, and they have. They have for 12 years have decided that they want their dignity and they they will resist. Um and, you know, when we I guess we can go all the way back to the start of this whole situation. We have, you know, 1948. I mean, really 18. 80 Something is when this whole thing started, which was, um, Theodore Hertzel, who was the head of the Zionist Congress. Basically, they were looking for a Jewish homeland and they went to Palestine at the time, which was under the Ottoman Empire. It was the region of Palestine, of the province of Palestine. And, you know, they're actually, you know, articles and reports of, you know, delegations from this is Congress going out there and coming back and saying, you know, this land already has a people married to it like there's people here they were looking at, you know, Poland at the time for a potential Jewish state. But ultimately they settled on Israel and Palestine and making recreating the ancient country of Israel. Yeah. And, um, in in 1917. I'm sorry, Uh, 1917. The Bellflower Declaration, which is a monumental thing, because that was at that towards the end of World War. It was, uh, Lord Bellflower in the UK basically made. He issued this declaration saying that that Palestine will be a future home for the Jewish people and that it did go into other length of saying that they must live in peace and respect the rights of the indigenous people, but that this is, ah, promise land to them now. And they're gonna they're gonna able to build a homeland there. And that's that's a pivotal moment in the Palestinian story because that I guess you would say not only indicated what was to come, but it It laid down the legal framework of this is Britain, which was a superpower at the time, um, saying that we're gonna make this happen. And so, you know, again, you remember that there was people. Now, one of the arguments that has always made is that Palestinians never, never had a country which is fair. They've never had an independent country. They've been part of the Ottoman Empire. That part of the Roman Empire. It's always been Palestine or mandate. Palestine or the Palestinian people There is has always been a people there named Palestine. You wanna go back to the Bible? You don't like? The Philistine is right? Yeah. Um, but and there's always been that culture of Palestinian food, the Palestinian, everything. Um, but it granted, we run a country, but that doesn't matter. We've always had a rights. We've lived in peace, you know, there's always been, um, the Palestinian people. Yeah, that's where they live, Of course. Um and so that's been one of the biggest one of the biggest things. Part of you know, Zionist philosophy is to kind of erase the identity of Palestinians to try to say that they're just Arabs, and they're from all over the Middle East, you know, they're just they can go back to another Arab country. But I mean, imagine you for generations living somewhere. And then it's the United States. You just always from this area, California, you get expelled, you know, and you say, you know go to New York, you could just go live there with the fact that it's

Jen Shahin:   59:37
like that Nothing's worse than that. Yeah, that. How

Brock Goldberg:   59:44
dare you? Yeah, but it's it's, uh, it's it's so true. And I I knew that when we started talking and after, you know, we had that conversation that day in my studio on, and I shared with you I'm going on birthright. Um, and and then I started the podcast, and I knew that there is a very strong chance, um, that me bringing this up, me having you guys on. And if they listen to it, they're not gonna let my wife and I go. But at the end of the day, internally, I said, fuck that. Because when I looked up, everything that you have been talking, in fact checked everything Not that you're a liar by any means, but you know, you have to write. You can't believe everything that everyone says. Um I saw the atrocities that are happening to your people, to the Palestinian people. And in 2020 you for that toe happen toe, anyone blows my fucking mind. How is there not enough land for everyone to share why is there not peace? And there is this ongoing issue in Middle East. But in American Quarter, in American politics, we don't talk about this. You know, most people, I would say, don't know what is going on between the Palestinians and Israelis.

Alex Shahin:   1:1:08
Yeah, and this is something that you're growing up we had to live with because in high school, you know, nobody knows the posse inside, So you're even even even the Arab Arab side in general, like the Iraq war in 2003. You know, they're they're terrorists. We got to go kill him and and honestly, I can't Shit, I can't. I can't. It's hard for me, too, too, you know, despise or blame anybody for thinking that way. Because that, of course, the media, the news says they there's one sided story that's propagated. And you know, I the only reason I think that maybe I like to think it's different. But the biggest reason I know about what's going on because I had immigrant parents from the region and I, and as everything was going, I could see the lies that were being counted at the time and but the difficult part was trying to bring that up in class or trying to make things when you're you're having to be an expert because they have, I mean everything. The Israeli point of view is the mainstream point of view. So you have to be that much smarter or that much more educated, to be able to, to go against what everybody else is. Common sense or common nature. And so and so that's what that's what made it so terrified you then. You always had, like, everything so

Jen Shahin:   1:2:19
late. I remember there being a time where I was almost having to and this is in the car. I was 16. So yeah, this was a junior in high school. Remember, in my modern civics class, which I don't think that existing probably not. You remember basically having to explain that this is an issue of international law and people not being able to understand international law and that it could be missed. It could be interpreted by countries differently in countries could say that which is what Israel did that you know, this is not a law. This is effect that we have this land and try to explain to people that Well, when you want land, but you don't want the people on that land that come with it. This is the situation you're in and it results in violence and how to break that down you even further, I would have no idea. And I remember my teacher having no idea. And then just me feeling defeated are like powerless. There's kind of like all right, people look at

Alex Shahin:   1:3:16
you like you're either crazy or you're a terrorist

Jen Shahin:   1:3:19
sympathizer. But it's not like that at all. I remember

Alex Shahin:   1:3:22
just saying like, yeah, like, even when the Iraq war came out, how could you not be? You know, for the

Jen Shahin:   1:3:26
water. Freckles are our troops. They're over

Alex Shahin:   1:3:28
there now, like and just like No, this is wrong. I'm marching, going on about Jen for 2003 and like, you know, when that war happened, that's what I That's what I really started understanding and really getting into history and politics because I got to see on TV all these things that were being said that we're like, Wait, that's not true. That doesn't sound. And then and then having to go and look it and research it and then understand and then go through the period of man like I have to go out on a limb to talk about this in class for with with the very likelihood that I will probably be shunned a little bit of the people that go at home, you know, we're like, Yeah, we got to

Jen Shahin:   1:4:02
kick your ass. And it's

Brock Goldberg:   1:4:04
so crazy. It's so crazy to think the in 3 2009 11 had just happened, you know, couple years prior and flash forward, you know, 18 years. 17 years later, I, um you know, a large group of the populations like what the fuck are we even therefore, why did this even happen? Right. Um and I have to say, during 2003 when that happened, I was like, Fuck yeah, Team America. Let's

Jen Shahin:   1:4:29
go fucking get the people. That What the fuck did they even have to do with

Brock Goldberg:   1:4:33
their right on? And so just just looking back, you know, I fell victim to that and

Jen Shahin:   1:4:41
easier, though, than trying to have to understand the situation that I was saying it was It's just so much easier to be like, You know what? Yeah, but that that's not cool than to say Wait, wait a second. What? Explain to me more about why we're in this situation. You have to talk for hours and being young, and every year it's not. It's just not yeah,

Alex Shahin:   1:4:58
about the maturity level. You have to be like to go against just common knowledge like it's very difficult. Unless you had parents who were people who also did that, it's more likely that you wouldn't even think to go against that, that it's not even about having to be, you know, brave enough to challenge it. It's like, Why would I challenge something? That's fact, Yeah, these guys are terrorists. These guys were, you know, And so then you're telling you're telling the sky's not blue and then they're just like, What are you talking that it's a a cognitive dissonance and just they you know?

Brock Goldberg:   1:5:25
Of course it's a problem. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Alex Shahin:   1:5:29
Um, yeah. I mean, I, uh I learned a lot, you know, in college, too. I mean, coming. I I had a group project one time with with this this girl, I wasn't partnership with the girl. I was taking this modern warfare class and we were learning about these, um is is the Lebanese Civil War and the Israel and the Egyptian Israeli War as well. And I never happen to do a group project with this girl. And she was, um she was like, a typical um, I would say, you know, Jewish girl who had gone to, you know, Jewish school who had learned from, you know, Jewish a one a one way perspective on Israel that and has most Jews. I don't know if you had this experience, but most Jews that I know and I'm friends with two. But growing up, they have been taught, you know, Israel can do no wrong. We owe our allegiance to make sure Israel is protected. And we should You know all that. And, you know, like just the just the sheer, you know, I am bird looking at her. And she was This was during the gut when Gaza War was going on in Israel's invading Gaza. And she's like, I was she was like, you know, they're all terrorists. We should just, you know, get rid of them. And I'm like, So you would meet that we should just nuke Gaza. And I'm like, so you would just You would just nuke Gaza and a wipeout, you know, almost almost two million people. So you're saying that a policy in life isn't worth anus really? Life? And she's like, No, absolutely not. Fucking kidding, straight up. And that's when I was really. But it was. It was in front of the group to, and everybody heard it and nobody said anything because I think they're all just shocked or also too scared to say anything because the biggest weapon that was always used against anybody who wants to bring a Palestine or want studies call out the other side of it are criticized. Israeli policy is you're an anti Semite. It's no sure I was used today and politics like Look at Jeremy Corbyn in the You know he's someone who is as a humanitarian for all people and all that. But he's also someone who spoke out for Palestine, Speaker of the house. There was a witch hunt, our speaker of the House of Commons. I say there was a witch hunt and believing the whole Labour Party anti Semite. It's insane and it's like and they can still do it, and it's still like it's It's a death knell. And the lobby here that social is really lobby here. And there's there's books and brave people who have written about it how how powerful That lobby is your political career. Your academic career will be shut down if you if you if you wait too far in that and that is really criticism pool. You know

Brock Goldberg:   1:8:01
that is insanity to me, because how does it get so tied up? If you speak out anything against Israel, anything you're automatically in an anti Semite, like

Jen Shahin:   1:8:13
how is that fucking possible? Is because you don't hear a lot no Jewish. It's like I and I'm not

Brock Goldberg:   1:8:21
religious by any means. You know, Uh, but culturally, you know, my, my you know, my my lineage. And in all that ship, I definitely was not brought up that I was the Jewish kid, the only Jewish kid on the block who celebrated Christmas bigger than anything else. That's the type of Ju I am. Yes, yes. Um And so at the end of the day, Mia, I'm able to kind of look from an outside perspective, but I know being younger. I remember anyone said anything about, you know, Israel. It was like like a nail in my fucking heart. How dare you! And now I'm like, Well, what the fuck? I mean, world, human and humans air good and bad, bad and good. And so just because they are, you know, that's a Jewish country, Jewish people, a lot of Jewish people live in Israel. That's a fact, right? If you speak out against their politics right on the things that they are doing, that

Jen Shahin:   1:9:19
does not

Brock Goldberg:   1:9:19
make you an anti Semite. You're like, there be one thing. If you're like, you know, you know, the fuck you kike or fuck you whatever and said like fucking harsh words. And okay, then I could understand it. But if you're speaking out against straight politics and what is going on over there, that does not make you an anti Semite,

Alex Shahin:   1:9:37
and this is there's There's a dilemma right now, I think for the Jewish community, because, you know, to be quite frank, the Jewish community always been on the side of civil rights and always been, You know, there were biggest proponents of black civil rights and for sure time here. But it was always that paradox that when it came to Palestinian rights, it was like That's where the buck stopped because they were also like you said, kind of ingrained in tow. We need Israel is us. We are Israel. Yeah, and that's not the case that has been. That has been what has kept Israel from having to face any consequence because the Jewish community in the United States, I mean, they're very they're a powerful community. And what's even more powerful than the Jewish community is the Israeli, you know, Zionist community, which is essentially allied with the neo con element of politics out here. And But what what's What makes me hopeful right now is that it's starting there, starting to be a Fisher, but were before and Democrat in the Democratic Party, the Republican Party. No one ever criticized Israel. It was like it was literally your career would be shut down. I mean, there's there's documented stories of congressman or other people losing their jobs after coming out against are saying something negative or criticizing through, but But now you have it where the Democratic Party is openly starting to say, Hey, we needed haven't even hand, and this is like a huge win, just saying that we need to treat the Palestinians and Israelis even handed. Yes, there's a huge win for us. I mean, that that was something that would just never happen. It was always Israel has the right to defend themselves. And that's a ludicrous statement because no, no other people, no other occupied people. People who have no power are not only supposed to, you know, um not cause trouble, but also guarantee the safety of their occupiers. And if they didn't do that, then they weren't. They weren't behaving and they have the right to kill them. You know, it's it's a It's a weird cognitive dissonance because on the one at the same time you have you have Israelis in Israel are they're both victim and oppressor at the same the ass in their own heads. Yeah, they are the victim of the Holocaust. They are victim because all the surrounding countries don't want to deal with them, and they view them as a call it colonists, which which in this in reality, is what they are. But, you know, and also the same time you have people who have been born in this country is in Israeli and does they don't know any better.

Brock Goldberg:   1:11:58
You don't know anything different. Yes,

Alex Shahin:   1:12:00
and they just know that Oh, there's policy means out there who hate our guts. And why did a hitter dance? Because we're Jewish,

Jen Shahin:   1:12:05
But it's not. That can't be the victim and the hero. No, I don't think they

Alex Shahin:   1:12:11
have the guilt of being a victim and a and the terrorists at the same time. It's Ah, it's an untenable position to be in, and they've been in that position really, since I mean at the very least since the 60 67. But really, since 1948 I mean, our mom was our mom's. The reason our mom grew up in a Lebanese refugee camp is because our our grandma, our grandparents, my mom's side, they had to flee. 1948 is known as Israeli Israel independence to the Palestinians, it's known as banana or the great catastrophe, because that's when they were. There was over 700,000 Palestinians ethnically cleanse from their homes, and they would do that by massacring villages. Daria scene was a famous one, and they would publicize that to say this is what will happen when it comes to you. And so Palestinians fled. But they were always promised that they would be able to return home one day. And that was obviously not the case

Jen Shahin:   1:13:09
known as the right of return.

Alex Shahin:   1:13:11
Yeah, the U N R W A genre was actually is a you an organization that was founded to deal with the Palestinian refugee crisis at that time? Yeah, the U. N works in relief agencies, you And so you know, since then you had passing refugees, and then it happened again. And that s so at that point, all the Arab countries and Israel, Israel that was better equipped, better financed than all the starting of countries. But while this was going on, this ethnic cleansing the air countries, you know, through together their armies and declared war, they lost. They were not as well equipped. And they were not as well funded A cz well organized as the design, its forces, Yes. And so at the end of so just I don't get a kind of going Tandy.

Brock Goldberg:   1:14:00
Oh, now you're good. You're good looking great.

Alex Shahin:   1:14:03
What happened at the end of World War two? Um or I should say, at the end of World War, the whole Middle East was just chopped up to the victory

Jen Shahin:   1:14:14
was just like lines on a map.

Alex Shahin:   1:14:15
Yeah, we all are, but there are basically arbitrary lines. There was Britain basically promised Palestine to three different look different groups of people that the bell fraud actuate declaration that the Sykes PICO Agreement third words. But they basically just arbitrarily drew these lines and said, Okay, this is going to you guys is going to you guys and this is how it works. And in that same time, that's when that's when the British took control of what they called mandate Palestine. And that's where men, that's where the British were then in control of that area until the end of a little later. After dinner will or two. It was World War Two that caused the mass immigration right where your baby's Jews came to. Palest absolute design ist movement had begun back before then, right, 1917 with resolution, and you could probably speak the student. But, you know, it wasn't like the Palestinians. They were never allowed to own more than, like one or two guns of village so they could never You could never sell it because the British or occupied

Brock Goldberg:   1:15:14
kind armed themselves.

Alex Shahin:   1:15:15
They could not. But they saw that they saw this happening after after some time because there was a kibbutz is and Zionist coming in At first, everybody. I mean, everybody was fine. But when they started seeing that there was an actual, like a Zionist motive to create a new Israel, a completely separate country where they wouldn't have rights on their own land, there was protest. They work organizing a protest in the British would, you know, the Roman prison? Whatever. Um and it wasn't until you know, after World War Two, when it was in earnest, that this was happening. The Sinus, You know, I guess it's a the organizer's had been for years getting money from, um, you know, the European, you know, elite kind of Jewish class, because this was a This was what was happening at the time. They were gonna critic country there, and they would do, no matter what. Um, the lagoon and the Stern Gang. These were two terrorist groups, Zionist terrorist groups. I forget which one it was. I want to say it was possibly the organ, but they blew up the King David Hotel, which had British soldiers in there, because at this time they were ready for the British to leave. They had what they needed and they wanted to create an Israeli state. And it was in 1948 when they declared their independence, that the actual ethnic cleansing of Palestine happened. And there's a great book by Ellen Pop P. A P P e. I want to say he's an Israeli and he wrote the ethnic lines. One of kind of lost your gum. It was so it was in 1948 the air Barbie's lost trying, you know, they got a conflict. The British had actually decided tow partition the land before this happened. And they gave a certain percentage to the Israelis in a certain percentage of the Palestinians with and they both had to respect each other's rights after the after that, for 1948 conflict, Israel then captured Maur of that land. And it was Jordan that took over what's called the West Bank. And it was Egypt that took over Gaza. Okay, okay, So the Palestinians, at this point, they don't have now. They all start there, either occupied or they're either under Egyptian and Jordanian control or they're under Israeli control. Um, so fast forward. Now there's other. There's other, you know, battles and wars going on, but basically fast 4th 1967 You have that. The six day is really areas war. And that's when Israel launched a preemptive attack on all the surrounding Arab countries. Syria, Jordan and Egypt bombed all of the airplanes on the ground. It was a great maneuver. They said it was It was it was a preemptive attack because, you know, quote unquote, there was going to be an imminent attack on them that was proven false.

Jen Shahin:   1:17:49
Financially backed, also by a lot of the U. S. Eyes really

Alex Shahin:   1:17:55
wouldn't be able to have done anything about the backing of

Jen Shahin:   1:17:57
the U. S. They were using Apache helicopters.

Brock Goldberg:   1:18:00
Why livewire is the U. S. Involvement is why did they want to be a part of something?

Alex Shahin:   1:18:05
That's a great question. And there's and there's a lot of this probably being multiple answers for that. You know, 11 common answer is that, you know, Israel was viewed as the beachhead for the Western world in the Middle East. Okay, They were gonna be the West's foothold there. Yes. You know,

Jen Shahin:   1:18:19
I actually believe that to be very true.

Brock Goldberg:   1:18:20
That would

Alex Shahin:   1:18:21
mean a lot of sense. Have, like, you have gnome Chomsky's really, you know? Well, no professor who talks about all kinds of politics, But, you know, that's that's his. His take is that Israel is really a pawn of the U. S. And essentially, like, you know, they they're they're our beachhead and make the kind of under there to the benefit of us for sure. You know, there's also the fact that you do have this. So John Mercer Moran, Stephen Walt They were there too, you know, prestigious professors. One Was that like Harvard? When was that? Princeton. The end of their departments. And they came together in 2006 and wrote a book called The Israel Lobby. And it basically details the influence that that lobby has in Israel. Lobby is a pack in all the affiliated 80 80 l and J and all the other ones that, you know, on the one hand, one lobbies for for essentially Israel's interests and they're not, they're not listed as a foreign agent, but they can openly do it and the influence that they had. I mean, they even documented that a lot of the reason we went to the Iraq war was for the that influence of those lobbies. The, you know, the no other country aggressively spies on the United States. No other allied countries has aggressively spiced Israel, does they? They? Jonathan Polar. He's a He's a spy who was stealing nuclear information passing on the Israelis. You had incidents where hundreds of art students were pope were poor. Are hundreds of supposed art students who opposes arson is going around, you know, selling art. And there were students, but they were actually found to be working for the Israeli spies. Massad, you had a fucking crazy there's There's countless stories of his really spying going on here and also of, I mean, just blatant brought, you know, bribery. Like like the information that we got. We went to war with Iraq. We ended up finding that there was the same department, the Naval Department. We were getting the information for the Iraq war way. We captured two Israeli spies and its prison them from there But this is what I had to do. Justice to drive the point home right in 1967. And this is something you could absolutely cup the USS Liberty. And in 1954 the love on affair. These were two incidences, the love on a fair start, their Israelis posing as Egyptians in Egypt. Um, attacked a U. S. Embassy, tried to bomb it, and they were caught. And those were Israeli agents because they wanted to try to get Egypt or the U. S. To go toward Egypt. They were released, and Leo ago were imprisoned for awhile. Imagine, Michael, but it wasn't in 1987 when that six day war was having. They tried to do the same thing and and they actually attacked the USS Liberty for I want to say 10 hours or some ridiculous amount killed U S soldiers killed on and just almost completely blew the shit like it's too that that that ship in the troops that were on that trip the service manager trip. So their credit that they survived, that they were talked for hours and Israel said that they had no idea that was in the U s ship, but it was well, it was well, wash it, and they wanted to sink it and blame it on the Egyptians. And so again, like this is something that the Johnson administration covered up. Why,

Brock Goldberg:   1:21:38
Rye? Countless times. Also

Alex Shahin:   1:21:41
catching spies here, catching, you know, like overly killing us with the question is why? And you know that it comes to Is it is it because the Israeli government has too much influence over the U. S? Or is it that there's a cab all in the US that wants us to support these really government at all costs? Okay. And I'm sure it's both during

Brock Goldberg:   1:22:01
a little bit of both, right?

Alex Shahin:   1:22:02
Yeah. What are the ends? I mean, it's, you know, Israel has been on aggressor state to savers. It's invaded Lebanon. It's invaded, you know? G Egypt. It's invaded, its invaded every cell country since the It's basically a Spartan state. It's just every everyone has to serve their time and everybody's on edge because they're constantly surrounded by Arabs. In Sparta is the same thing. Every oldest spartan, um, all the Spartans with costly, surrounded by slaves, who they, you know, they had also always be on edge, you know? And so you know, it's that then that's what That paranoid. You know, um, mentality comes from, but at the end of the day, I don't I couldn't tell you for sure. Why don't you support me? Just give you one more example. Okay, so we're all the world over Russia's ass right now because we're saying they interfere in our elections there, meddling in our affairs. Now, do you believe that? Well, I don't I to the extent that were led to believe they are absolutely not. I don't think they are, but I You know, I could be wrong, but I don't believe that they I tell you, I don't believe that they caused Trump to win the election. That's what I believe for sure. Um, I think that that was there was, um a lot of other reasons Hillary lost that election. Then Russian.

Brock Goldberg:   1:23:11
I I would absolutely agree with that,

Alex Shahin:   1:23:13
but we launched a full scale investigation, were ready to impeach convict everything because of this, because supposedly they influence the elections. By what? Buying ads or whatever. Yes, but But how could you? I mean, when you look at the comparison toe. How how another country? Let's say Israel has interfered in U. S. Politics and decision making. And when Obama was was negotiating the Iran deal, the most vocal, the only really the only country in person specifically who was against this deal was Netanyahu's the prime minister of Israel, and he actually came behind Obama's back without cause of Obama did not want him to come visit Congress. He came visited Congress gave a speech about how Iran is a threat and how Iran should. We think that they should absolutely make this deal and lobbied against the president's own initiative to make this deal. And he did that with a standing ovation in

Brock Goldberg:   1:24:08
Congress. Absolutely. I remember that

Alex Shahin:   1:24:10
because that's how much that issue is a nonpartisan issue and how much control or influence that another government has in our politics. And now you fast forward to today.

Brock Goldberg:   1:24:20
Well, what what does that have to do with Russia not interfering with US elections, I mean, because we know that we do that. I mean, so many other nation states do the same exact thing. So to say that they, uh, you know, allowed or made Trump won the presidency when obviously, Hillary Clinton was a very flood candidate. But, you know, absolutely. That's a proven fact. Um, but what is your thoughts? Because then you start talking about Netanyahu and all of that. You don't believe that they were a part of it. Russia was a part of it or they didn't do it. Or is it all just a bunch of bullshit?

Alex Shahin:   1:25:00
I think I think that we don't really care that that the Russians did what they did. We actually know what they do. We have the n S A. We know what the hell's going on. We just wanted to use it as I mean, not just Well, I mean, let's say the Democratic Party, for sure, you know, is using that as because it's something that they can hype up that they can blow out. You know, lower absolution is the enemy right now and use it as a political tool to defeat Trump down. And

Brock Goldberg:   1:25:27
as we know,

Jen Shahin:   1:25:27
it didn't do a damn thing. Ukraine things with the impeachment process and all that. It

Brock Goldberg:   1:25:35
just blows my mind that this is what and they're trying to push so hard on when there's so many other things, just

Jen Shahin:   1:25:43
like the fucking emoluments

Brock Goldberg:   1:25:44
clause. Like it just blows my mind where it's like and

Jen Shahin:   1:25:47
that is a way bigger deal,

Brock Goldberg:   1:25:49
you know, being a

Jen Shahin:   1:25:50
president. And actually the Republicans could say what you just said and go, Hey, we didn't, uh you know, you know, come after this person. There was no consequence for the Oh, yeah, that's what I'm saying, like a point so that but they just don't care Because because

Alex Shahin:   1:26:03
the Democrats, Republicans, politicians, they only want to talk about things, that they want to talk about it. They don't want to ever have to mention a realist. You like? If someone just said what you were saying, Oh, yeah, well, look at Netanyahu is they don't want to bring attention to that. They don't want to equate that with anything, because the fact of the matter is, what else showing at the point, they clearly don't have an issue with foreign powers influencing us as long as there, that's the people that are paying them. You know, the people that

Brock Goldberg:   1:26:25
are for sure, and I think it's both sided with both parties, you know, they picked up. Here's what they want. They want it. Don't You don't want to get behind. Um but just, you know, looking back at the past of of the, you know, just Israeli movement in U. S. Politics and what's going on in the Middle East. You know, obviously, I'm not a specialist to say you know exactly what the fuck is going on, but what? I can see what I can read. Um, and just kind of what we've been talking about. Where the hell does this go? How does this change? I know that we've talked about in the past, you know, Uh, just kind of the movement that's happening in America at this current moment. Um, is that enough to push the tied down the road? Or, uh, what's your thoughts on that? Both of you,

Jen Shahin:   1:27:17
I think, Like I think, um, I would say I have had a lot more hope and rebirth and hope in just the last couple of years with, like, the BDS movement coming up and having other organizations recognize us like like black lives matter stream defenders. You know, people are out there and politicians like Marc Lamont Hill who got fired for speaking out for our, you know, Butt stock Stooges, you know, agenda of awareness. Um, I think I've had a lot more hope. I'm seeing a shift in a turn and in a really bizarre way, like, you know, almost like, you know, vice making a documentary about Ramallah DJs, you know, things like, you know, stuff like it's almost become oddly ah, hip thing, which is also scary because I worry, is this a fad and it's gonna fade away, just cool to be interested in Palestine. But regardless of that, I think it's coming with youth. And when I visited Palestine in 2000 a even versus 2011 I saw a completely different place because maybe of social media may be of theirs, but of of the youth there rising up with their talents on their voice and starting really amazing bands and having incredible exhibitions, and they've created this amazing movement. Now that has surpassed all of this sort of, you know, murky political agendas. And it's becoming more powerful. Yes, it is government, absolute powerful in politics.

Alex Shahin:   1:28:48
And just so she's a beauty s movement, that's the boycott divest in sanction movement. Um, and that's and that's purely grassroots, and that's just appealing to artists appealing to people to just say to do what what we did against South Africa, which is just boycott them and say, You know what? We're not We're no longer going to do business with you until you can respect human rights.

Brock Goldberg:   1:29:10
Absolutely. It's it's it's this young like you said grassroot grassroots movement That's happening all around the world. Everyone from there to Hong Kong, people standing up. And it's a lot of young kids who, uh, who have grown up in this digital age, where information is crossing boundaries in ways we could have never imagined. And for me, I'm a huge proponent for the Internet. Yes, there's been a lot of bad shit, but there's been so many amazing things, and it is this younger generation that I have strong hope for for all different issues all across the globe. So it's ah, it is Ah, scary, but very exciting time that we're living in.

Jen Shahin:   1:29:55
Yeah, I mean, I definitely feel like I said, you know, I don't know how hopeful I am, where this can go. I don't believe in a two state solution which we could talk okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's a problem, because that's going to incite a lot of violence. And this woman might go on forever and ever remember. But that said, I do see, you know, the the rising of our youth and also on the site of of Israel as well. A lot more. A lot more. People are saying I won't serve in the army and the person for it. You know what was

Alex Shahin:   1:30:26
going on right now? And it's weird how it means I want to say weird. It's so interesting how all over the world like you were saying There's grass is coming up and there's also a fascist governments coming right at the same time. So it's like the world is polarizing, too, and like one of the things that I think can can. Partially, there's two things I think really credit, the kind of feel the feel that the tide is starting to turn to for people to recognize what's going Palestine, you know, one of things that really broke through the cycle body but was just the indiscriminate killings in Gaza that we went on 1000 14 and that was just like listen, It's really hard to defend, like, you know, Apaches just bombing schools with Children, in hospitals, whatever, like just bombing civilian areas indiscriminately. And that was a big thing. And the other thing is, now it's it's It's this marriage that's going on politically between Netanyahu and Trump that really removes, and both of them in America Trump doing the same thing of removing the facade of what's really what a government really is, which is just a corrupt, you know, debauchery. Like he That's the one thing I can respect. That Trump is that he just he's just, you know, doing his thing openly and without shame on. And he really moves that and same thing with Netanyahu, and now it's become in in the government. Over there. It's become and you've had, like, What's What's that actress's name from the professional?

Jen Shahin:   1:31:46
I don't know.

Alex Shahin:   1:31:47
You know, the, um you know what she was on star?

Brock Goldberg:   1:31:50
I don't know.

Alex Shahin:   1:31:50
You know she you know she's important, Natalie So So she even came out and spoke out against the Israeli government to, and she's designed this and I think I don't know if she was born over there, but she was, but she spoke out because and many of them are starting to speak out specific instance. Yahoo. But like they passed a nation state law which actually codifies the Jews are treated superior than Palestinians like. They're becoming more overt about it now. And that's making people uncomfortable because at least before, they could pretend like the racism didn't exist and the apartheid didn't exist. But now that you know the face of that, that the racism you know here is being lifted on sale in the racism in it and there's and there's those two movements are kind of coming together where now you actually have, like the Democrats who can associate, understand a little more about what's going on over there because it's going on here and now and now there's that willingness to challenge. That's why it's not in the Republican Party, you

Brock Goldberg:   1:32:42
know, of course, of course not absolutely.

Alex Shahin:   1:32:44
But it was because of the liberal side first, and they're willing to look at it now.

Brock Goldberg:   1:32:48
Absolute absolutely, like you're saying the veil is definitely coming off with Donald Trump becoming the president and just speaking here in the United States of America, we see things. Ah ah, that we've never seen before. Um, and he is just very, you know, kind of open about lot of his shit. Um, but what it does is it allows us to take a peek into what is going on. And I I really believe, um, that, uh, regardless if he wins or not this next election, Um, you know, this this this younger generation is in America, in Israel, Palestine, the Hong Kong really going to start to see what the fuck is going on and just all the stories and just really the information that they'll be able to get online. They're going to stand up a TTE least that's what I like to believe. And it's just things that I'm seeing. And yes, you're right. Fascist governments are popping up, and it is Ah, it's a very weird time. Um, but but but yeah, but but but it feels good, but let's just hop right back into it, you know, growing up, being a Jewish American, you for me. I always heard you know, one state to state solution and, uh, you know, for me it was like, OK, well, that, you know, I don't fucking live there. I don't really know. So anything that I say you know is irrelevant. And I guess for the longest time, I was like, why doesn't a two state solution, you know, work out? Why can't two people, um, you know, just get their shit together and get along, and it's I but I don't understand. I didn't grow up, you know, with the parents that you guys grew up with. I didn't grow up with just a lot of those, uh, those those scenarios in my own personal life. S O. You know, Jen, when you said, you know, I don't think a two state solution eyes gonna work, right? I want to know why. Because just kind of paint the picture, because I really don't understand. Uh, you know, one state solution, two state solution. My guys like, Well, why can't you people get along right? But the's air to fucking countries, right? So it's a lot different than two people.

Jen Shahin:   1:35:10
Yeah, well, it's such a good question, because I can only go baste again off my experience, being there and seeing a state not willing to dignify people enough to live with. Um not withdraw from the occupied territories that they're not not prepared to take out military control, not prepared to give anything back that they've already had and not willing to, um, you know, acknowledge their rights. So why, you know, I think is you know, I mean, I could just simply put it and say, you know, they don't They're they're never gonna give that up and they don't want That is the simple answer. They don't They don't want a two state solution. There has been so many meetings, especially also Arafat, who I think came the closest to this, um, to create what we deemed was fair by simply saying, You just don't get to annex more land, and you have to give up, you know, military control of our people and, you know, give us our rights. Not not even asking for the return Bad. I mean, you got birthday. Yeah, we can.

Brock Goldberg:   1:36:19
That's fucking crazy to me. Like you can't. They can't go. They can't go home.

Jen Shahin:   1:36:23
And to think this is not in the agreement, even. But it's not nothing that they are prepared ever to agree to to giving? Absolutely. Absolutely. I can only say that much. But if there is a deeper reason behind that, I would think maybe you might be better. Well, there's

Alex Shahin:   1:36:41
the to understand. First of all, like the whole, you have to understand why two state solution would no longer work. You have to understand how they got to where we are today, which is like, basically, if I When I mentioned earlier about 97 that was the second time that was that the Six day War. And they took over the West Bank from, uh from Jordan, and it took over the Gaza Strip from Egypt. They took over the Golan Heights from Syria. They completely dominate this war. There was there was another. There was another war after that. Call the Uncle Poor War, where, you know it was between Egypt and Syria. But that's not That's not in relation to really what's going on with Palestinians. So, um so So at this point now, it was next seven when the whole term occupied territories came because when the Israelis took over the West Bank and they took over the Golan and they took over the Gaza Strip, those were now the occupied territories of Israel. and they became internationally legally occupiers of a people and the U. N passed a resolution passed two resolutions. Ah, resolution to 42 and I've got the other one. But the's a resolutions basically requiring that Israel retreat back to pre 1967 borders and let the Palestinian people have their land back becoming a knock sense, right? It was that was that was passed by the U. N. And ratified. And that never happened. Right? So but there were whole thing was Okay, well, let's figure out the peace process. We gotta have peace between the Palestinians and Israelis, so let's have them amicably work it out because the US again they don't. They're the enforcers of the U. N. I mean up until you know now, if they don't want, something happens and it doesn't happen in the U. S. Okay. And Israel in the U. N. Had a very close sorry Israel. That's a very close relationship is, you know, the last couple of decades, you know, almost every resolution that would condemn Israel's like, you know, occupation or their settlements or whatever has been vetoed by the United States in the in the in the U. N. So they have that protection. But but fast forward. So understanding that that there's the occupied territories, right? And then you have to understand that it's starting around in the eighties. The Israelis who again they're supposed to, you know, this is occupied territory there once was. So during the dice seven war, another 450,000 refugees were created from the West Bank, and others were given Israeli citizenship, and others were staying just as residents of the West Bank. But 400,000 were expelled. And so that that further worse and all the refugee, you know, camps all over the city and the other just as a side note. Like the refugee camps, they're not ever not given citizenship in those countries, so they're just without

Brock Goldberg:   1:39:13
so they're just like nomads. No country, nothing

Alex Shahin:   1:39:16
in this in this international

Brock Goldberg:   1:39:17
limbo. And this fucking member,

Alex Shahin:   1:39:19
That's why they say that they have no rights in all the countries in Lebanon and other places

Jen Shahin:   1:39:22
again. That brings that I international law. Yeah, yeah, it is so poorly designed so that countries can get away with doing this. And like I said, I feel like Israel has used that as their tactic, time and time again to prove that they are within the rights of international law to be Kota governing these people.

Brock Goldberg:   1:39:47
Yeah, command, command and conquer Commander Conquer. And it's just, uh, it's just fucking crazy. But getting toe back to the point to, you know, two state solution. Um, in theory, it sounds like a great idea, but what it sounds like is that it's not, uh, it's very one sided.

Alex Shahin:   1:40:07
Yeah, and I'll kind of fast forward through the whole thing. But I was saying is that the settlements were starting to be built in the eighties, right? So settlements are basically Israel bringing in Israeli Jewish citizens onto the land of Palestinians that where they live, they will under under auspices of not having the right permits or whatever. They'll destroy the Palestinians home and build an Israeli settlement on that area. So they have built. So over the course of the last 30 years, they've been building settlements, moving Jewish settlers into the land on the on the homes of Palestinians on you know, whether it's moving into their home directly and just taking it over or demolishing in and then building a brand new settlement and then, you know, taking all the water resource is into, you know, and then and then they have a checkpoint from every settlement. This is what the West Bank is. Remember these Czech ones they have. You know, if you want. If you want to take your kid to the hospital, you have to go through the two or three checkpoints.

Brock Goldberg:   1:40:58
So if you're Palestinian, you have to get a visa. You have to go through checkpoints.

Alex Shahin:   1:41:02
Yes, your life is just a constant humiliation because every day you reminded of the occupation. If they, you know, there's. There's cases of women having to give birth in their car because they can't get to Austin because of the checkpoints. You know, vanity. You know, it's just a complete militarize security state throughout all these occupied territories with and then you know, policy is being further for the driving until the reservation status, and that's that's kind of what and that's and that seems to be the de facto are like. The ultimate goal of the Israeli state is to just have all of it and stick policy into the reservation

Brock Goldberg:   1:41:32
and where they're going to go. Like what? What? Where do they have to go? They just let these people just live like nomads and huts

Jen Shahin:   1:41:40
and more like prisoners jobs and for very low pay. They They're like modern taste slaves in some of these camps.

Brock Goldberg:   1:41:48
And the Israelis just allow it.

Alex Shahin:   1:41:51
Well, they will. I mean, you minions will

Brock Goldberg:   1:41:54
say citizens that beside the Israeli citizens as a whole

Jen Shahin:   1:41:57
just don't know what Okay, they're so protected from that. They're so shielded from the reality of it. A lot of them, wouldn't you say? I know when I was visiting with friends and 2011 and they were like, I just want to hop over to Tel Aviv and visit a friend of mine or something. Okay. On day we go and they would talk to their friends there, and they all I'm staying in Bethlehem with my friend and they're like, Why would you go there? Like like we've never been there? We would never go on there like horrified And she's like, No, it's totally fine. She she was so shocked. I'm shocked. And and then I would go myself into Jerusalem and the process of that being you know, also humiliating us American because I have a Palestinian name and I'm on the register and they know your whole family. They just stop you then and there, and that's a process. But after that, going in there and realizing, you know some of the Palestinians that were born there have never even been to the West Bank. They don't know told or they see it for themselves, but it's heavily monitored. Can you leave? So

Alex Shahin:   1:43:01
No, you can't. But you can't go necessarily in and out of the occupied territories. I

Brock Goldberg:   1:43:05
could get an airplane to fly out like a Palestinian. Come No,

Alex Shahin:   1:43:08
no policies have no control over their airspace. They have no military. That's the misconception. You think there's two countries. It's not a country that the policies don't have a military. They have what security forces that the Israeli government allows them to have to monitor some of their own people. Okay, but that's it they don't have. That's why they only have guerrilla tactics and you know, yes, you no more. You know, UNT intentional warfare.

Brock Goldberg:   1:43:29
And and that's what you know in the United States. Ah, when those things happen, it's a terrorist attack and things of that nature. Um, that's happening. Uh, yes, I'm asking that. Is that happening? Because just everything has been stripped away from them that they have to resort Thio guerrilla style, you know, style tactics. And,

Alex Shahin:   1:43:51
well, that's a bit like you. They don't have the ability to fight in, like, a modern way. And every time there's a they tried to organize peacefully, that's also met with violence. Okay, so look, even now when there's peaceful protests there, you know, you have your your postings were imprisoned for organizing them. You know, you mentioned my dad

Jen Shahin:   1:44:09
killed they're getting shot at like the doctor, you know, she was just, you know, on site medic, and they shot her in the chest. Oh, now it's

Alex Shahin:   1:44:18
a Remo. Something, I think. But the thing is, so the thing is, we see this because we see what the post to come out of the Middle East because there were friends with on instagram, and we have we follow. The news article is that, you know, we'll show you the actual other side of what's going on, which is you know, Palestinians are are shot in cold blood. I really like a daily basis without any without any repercussions. Ah, Palestinian could throw a rock at a tank, and he could get years in prison. A child, can they? They imprisoned Children on bats, and they don't give their parents the right to be with them when they're when they're detained on. And people are just revolved through the prison system there, Um, the natural part of life. Okay, um, and and so the thing is, on the opposite side, you know, Israelis taken, taken, shoot a kid and it may never even be investigated. Or if it is, he may only get six months in prison with parole because it's a it's a it doesn't end like like that girl I mentioned. They don't treat Palestinian life. The same is Jewish life over there, or even is really like you could even be Arab Jewish over there. And it's still frowned upon, you know, called Mizrahi juice. Okay, because it's really just become like the ruling classes in Israel are descendants of Russian and Eastern European, of weight of white, you know, areas. And so they also kind of have this this ingrained hatred of Arabs and racism that's Onley gotten so much worse than I mean, You have the politicians that are openly racist over there and say that, you know, Palestinians just give him up Pussy. Mothers give birth the stakes, you know? And that's like a like the head of the justice system saying that.

Brock Goldberg:   1:45:58
Yeah. And no one does anything. No one says anything. It

Alex Shahin:   1:46:01
is in the West Bank. There was this kid. I forget his last name. But this is the whole family. Their house was set on fire by terrorists with them inside, and almost the whole family died. And one of the one of the family members was a toddler, and it was burned alive, you know? And And the settlers are finally brought in, and they were tried and they got, like, they got maybe a year on. Then they got let out early.

Jen Shahin:   1:46:23
Yeah, they had early release. It only serves six more. And you had chance.

Alex Shahin:   1:46:26
Your chance Ali is burning on the grew like, just like openly just taunting the family of that, burning their toddler alive. And it was just okay.

Jen Shahin:   1:46:35
That's because again they don't They don't acknowledge them as like you. So

Brock Goldberg:   1:46:40
So So this is why

Jen Shahin:   1:46:41
this is not alive.

Brock Goldberg:   1:46:42
Is that why the Palestinians have to resort to these? Whatever tactics, because it's just enough is enough, right?

Alex Shahin:   1:46:49
I mean, if I mean, if you put yourself in that position, what would you do if you have was, you know, just nothing to live for a lot of cases. And yeah, you're gonna be an act of desperation. Of course. You know, there are organizations that are trying to a Jewish Israeli organizations that are trying to bring to this You have Betselem. That is, that their current mission over there is to document, you know, war crimes. And so and they're targeted by the government. But they were getting more and more heat, but they just you have breaking the silence, which is former Israeli soldiers coming out and speaking about what they did. What happened in no way territories. Yeah, so changed. So you have it. But the thing is, it's changing. Almost the pressure against those groups are becoming bigger over there. Over there right now. It's actually also even a slander just to be called a lefty. Like it Even the thought of that you would like like right now, they're going through some big political situation because they don't have a cat form of government. Because because Netanyahu has been indicted for bribery. The option. He's a corrupt, you know, for those for those reasons he's being indicted. And you have the other parties who there's like certain religious parties over there that just don't want to work with other parties. And you have certain parts of the world with Daniela specifically so they can't form a government there right now. Um, but the problem is that they could form a government. One a one party has to do is, is allow the Palestinian com members of bodies to be part of that government. But that's unthinkable when they're not even two former government. Would they? Would they ever think of allowing the the, you know, the few Palestinian members of the ness it over the Knesset over there? Is that the caller Congress t ever consider them actually being part of a government because

Jen Shahin:   1:48:27
of Palestinians? So I think to answer your question there, just not willing, and the wise, you know, just because I think they try, they're going to try it till the day that they die too, you know, acquire all of that land and just have their own state. And

Brock Goldberg:   1:48:44
yeah, but it does sound like, you know, like, these different organizations and things that are happening in America. Um, and just people being more aware of the atrocities you guys coming on and talking about this, right, putting it out to the world, right? And I do keep on bringing this up. That is why I had you come on, because, um, you know, there were times like am I talking too much or whatever? Like No, no fucking talk, you know, because that's what this is all about. Back to your stories about your story. And we all have a story. And with everything that's going on in the world, I just want people, uh, like the both of you to come somewhere in share, and hopefully, you know, people are listening and they can take nuggets from this. So that, um, in the coming generation in decades to come, things will change. This is what I like to hope. Because if not because if I am wrong, then all of this is going to go to shit. You know it's all gonna go to shit for the Palestinians. It's all gonna go to shit for the Americans are gonna go ship for everything, right? And so, um, we a society need to not take a blind eye to actions like this, But it is very scary when you do have a government that is kind of ah, closing the putting a veil over this to their to their citizens. And if they, um, don't fully know what the fuck is going on, Um, I do hope that, uh, you know, the organizations. Where were the two that you brought up again?

Alex Shahin:   1:50:28
Betselem. Betselem? Yeah. It's like it's a speedy apostrophe. T c e l e m, I think. Okay. And then breaking the silence.

Brock Goldberg:   1:50:36
Yeah, the You know, organizations like that can make a change, but I'm I don't doubt that they're taking a lot of pressure. Um, uh, you know, from from the Israeli government t to you. They're a Zionist. What? What is a Zionist? You You brought it up so people don't know. I would like for you to share.

Alex Shahin:   1:50:54
Yeah, e I guess the simplest. You know, um, the simplest version of what design It says it is the belief that the land of historical Palestine should be a Jewish centric nation to the exclusion of its other citizens. Yeah, non Jewish citizens

Brock Goldberg:   1:51:14
for sure. Uh, yeah, that makes sense on DSO, you know, even just kind of looking at Americans. What the hell does it mean to be American, right? You know, so many time and time again throughout, you know, civilization. Um, it's been this command and conquer command and conquer causes American citizens isn't even a fucking land to write. But I just just fucking racks my mind that this whole two state solution, you know, can't work. But But it's If someone doesn't want it to work, then obviously it's never going to work. But I am hopeful. I am hopeful that

Alex Shahin:   1:51:56
s O. S. Oh, that's like the predicament, right? Cause you know the two state solution, because the reason why we would say that you know, they don't want it to work is because they would never want like, I mean, they won believe that the whole of Israel, the former Israel should be one should be. Judah and Samaria vacation part of the country, and they should rule over it. And but on the other hand, here's the Here's the thing. So, like, so they would never allow that valuable posse in ST there other than these reservations. But then what's the other option? Right, So then you have okay so that you don't want to see a solution. Okay, What about a one state solution? What about you just grant us rights? You know, like, just okay, You know what? I have the name Israel. We just want to be treated like humans, and, you know, let's just have rights and give the posting of the vote. And that's a big problem. Because Palestinians are Arabs being Palestine. They're the majority, not even including the refugees, because they still haven't given the right of the refugees, they want to consider that which is international laws, the right of refugees to return to their homeland. These refugees for, you know, decades have never been allowed to return. So they have no homeland, no rights and

Jen Shahin:   1:53:01
enforcing those laws. So

Alex Shahin:   1:53:03
and so, uh, but tough. The other problem is that, you know Okay, so you give the Palestinians, but they have the majority now. I mean, they're gonna they're gonna get passed laws that are, you know, maybe not only favorable to just, you know, that elite that already? Yeah. So it's Ah, it's so then where? What solution is there? That's why the status quo has been the status quo for so long. Because that's what the Israelis are okay with their okay, with their people here not having rights, being closeted, people that they can not have to like, you know, they could have a cheap labor force to control their entire living. And then, you know, even in the pot and the fifth of the population that they allow to have citizenship in Israel, which are fifth Arab, they basically just shown them and say, OK, well, you get to pretend like you're part of the government, but not really, you know. So it's so like

Jen Shahin:   1:53:53
ST Solutions are scarier,

Alex Shahin:   1:53:55
so it's scary from that. That's whether in a real crisis, for now, the crisis of like it's almost like when they say existentially crisis. I mean, yes, it's part of why they're at war so much is because they need to be focused on something when you actually come down to it like they can't have any settling. They have to have just complete war domination. Because if you come down toe, let's work this out. It's give up the majority or have ah split up the country and have two states. And

Jen Shahin:   1:54:19
it's not like you've taken

Brock Goldberg:   1:54:20
a two state solution would. I mean, just from the outside Now, looking would definitely sound better. But if they don't want to give up their rights, like fucking spoke that shit, but it's it's

Alex Shahin:   1:54:32
so let me ask you this. Why, If you think so, you're thinking, Yeah, the two state solution would be the better. It often, right? Because, you know, No, let's like the thought, right? Well, I would agree. I would say, Yeah, why not? You could have. You could have a majority. Just give it to equal states. And you can have your own state whatever you want with it. But I sure, but why then, would you if you're actually trying to negotiate that in earnest and try to come to a real amateur success with the whole peace process, is about why would you do that whole time, continually build settlements and put the Jewish people into the land that you're supposed to be giving back. It makes no sense.

Brock Goldberg:   1:55:10
No, no, it doesn't problem, because if there ever does come in time in a two state solution, they'll be such small land for the Palestinians in all of this land for the Israelis, I mean, that's the

Jen Shahin:   1:55:20
only way that

Brock Goldberg:   1:55:21
I could think that just kind of on the brink of a moment. But, you know, you know his history, history, history will tell, uh, in, uh, many years to come with me

Jen Shahin:   1:55:32
from history's. We don't learn way. We'll see.

Alex Shahin:   1:55:37
It's a tough situation. It's sad for all parties in that because, you know, I think that it's almost a class thing to that. You know, even if it should ever hit the fan over there, the wealthy could go back to other countries that there's some sensitive. And it's the it's the people like the people that can't leave, of course, that that are the ones who bear the brunt of the problem. You know?

Brock Goldberg:   1:55:56
Well, that's how it happens all the time, always, always growing up. Your parents talked a lot about this. They were open about it, or

Alex Shahin:   1:56:05
our dad talked a lot about because he's kind of a historian, like he used a big history buff and it was something. It was a point of pride for him to be able to be ableto kind of explained the history,

Jen Shahin:   1:56:14
for sure. I mean, I do think my mom talked about it, but she talked about it in a very on a more personal level, like her experience as a refugee child, you know, and how she dealt with discrimination. And, you know, the feeling again of being powerless. I'm not having a voice. That was her thing. And I think she skirted around sort of the politics behind it because, you know, she worked so hard, I think, to start over. Yeah, absolutely. I think I think her parents also sort of dismissed it to like It's not important. Now we have. This is where we are. This is your new life sort of thing, just

Brock Goldberg:   1:56:54
thrown on the

Jen Shahin:   1:56:54
run. It's not until I'd say in the last five years to 10 years my mom got more vocal about the politics side. So most of this information growing up was coming from my dad. Okay, I was like, you know, he left out the sort of personal struggle. Yeah, my mom was all about the first

Brock Goldberg:   1:57:12
coming up both sides of it, which is, uh, which is really fantastic and having your parents that went through all of this firsthand.

Jen Shahin:   1:57:20
Yeah, I really like my mom said in school, she used thio, see kids drying a picture of a kid with devil horns and writing Palestinian on. And she was she was really, you know, shoot. That really tore her up, you know? But what's funny about that? As I remember reading about that happening to Jews, Yeah. Um, and I remember telling my mom and her not believing that could be the case, you know, you know, but saying we'll probably you know, but But yes. So I think you know what I had read that, you know, happening are, you know, people reporting that happening during the time of the Holocaust. I just again, I just felt like this is it's yeah, it's it's it's supposed to be him,

Brock Goldberg:   1:58:06
you know? You know, you know, you've had the Jewish people that throughout history, time and time again, you know, she should has happened to them. And then, especially with the Holocaust in most recent memory. Um e just like Thio. I don't not like, but what I'm thinking is that there? I kind of like Well, fuck this. This is this is ours. And I don't give a shit about anything else, right? Because all of these things have happened. And if we ever let anything else like that happen again to us, well, you know, that's that's that's on us, right? But that is Ah, that is a poor outlook on it. You know, um, you know, circumstances or circumstances and the Holocaust was fucking terrible. I mean, I remember growing up and my mother telling me the story that, uh, she went to her aunt and it's like, Oh, why do you have numbers? You asked my grandma What? You have numbers on her and she you know, she you know, she told her about the Holocaust. I mean, that that, um and you know, that always stuck with me. But, you know, going through all of that as a people to then, you know, cause pain on another group of people that just tears my heart up. It really does, because it's unfair to happen. T Anyone going through the sons.

Jen Shahin:   1:59:20
Well, like, you know, I mean, it kind of also comes back to, you know, abusers being abused. Yeah,

Alex Shahin:   1:59:25
think Israeli Palestinian thing is just like a macrocosm

Jen Shahin:   1:59:30
of relations course. Exactly.

Brock Goldberg:   1:59:32
I always I always talk about this, and then I'll let you share your point. I share this point so bloody I share this point that, um you know, if you have ah, you know, a son and a daughter, and they and they grew up in there. They're the father is very abusive to the mother, The daughter watching the dad at the mom, Uh, she's gonna be more prone to accept that from a significant other. And then the sun will be more prone toe, you know, laying his hands on a significant other. Um, and I grew up knowing that firsthand, uh, you know, watching the things that my father did to my mom did to me, Um, and I always knew that that was not the way to fucking handle a situation. And, um, you know, even when he would hit me, it would just make me act out more. Right? Um but a you you take that and you put that on a fucking large scale, like, you know, Israel, like you guys just said And it's, um it's the abuser acting as the abuse, he or the abuser. You get what I'm trying to say. So now you can chime

Alex Shahin:   2:0:50
in, Brother,

Jen Shahin:   2:0:53
behave. Alex. Come on, man, get your shit together.

Alex Shahin:   2:0:57
Seriously? No, I agree. I agree with what you were saying. I think that it's, um, like for the fur. But I think the only way that peace is ever going to be achieved is for both sides just to forgive. Yeah, you know, and have to move forward because there is no other way out without massive violence and death and everybody just saying, OK, listen, let's figure out a way to get along in a healthy relationship and past. I mean, it's It's like, you know, there's like the hardest part is like you want justice, right? So it's like how at what level of what level is there justice And what level is it? Revenge. So it's like you gotta figure out a just a way to forgive.

Jen Shahin:   2:1:40
And that's why my hopes with the youth, yeah, you know, I feel like they want this to when I listen to them, you know, they're ready to move on. They want better leaders, they won't change. They want their movement. And I think that this is the only way forward through forgiveness but not going to come from anyone. But

Brock Goldberg:   2:1:57
no, no, for sure, it's It's truly a pivotal moment. Um, where we, uh we make these choices, you know? You go left, you go right. And it'll take time to tell. Um, you know what the right choice was with with the youth, but I am very, very hopeful. Ah, that they will bring riel and positive change. Um, you know, it was having you guys come on today, and it means it means a lot to me because, uh, talking about real issues that are going on the world from the point of view eyes that you you guys, you know, saw you know, your your your parents went through in the life and the hardship in this struggle in the fucking ingenuity that that they did to create two. Amazing. And I'm sure four amazing. Ah, Children. But at least two that I'm seeing right in front of me. It blows my mind um and so it is. Ah, it is a really, really exciting time. And I just want to thank you guys so much for being, ah, part of this journey with with with me. Um, and thank you so much for, you know, really sharing your guy's story. Because, uh, I do believe that a lot of people, um well, we'll take a lot from this podcast. Uh, and, um, you know, Yeah, it's just this This is fucking a lot. And, umm, I really look forward to the future. I really do. Um, you know, you always got something to chime in China. I said it. Guys,

Alex Shahin:   2:3:46
I really appreciate you having us on. This was awesome experience, and I have always had just Ah, it's been a pleasure. Just took have a conversation with you about real shit. So thanks for

Jen Shahin:   2:3:57
thanks for letting me, you know, join in the bromance feel very special. Yes. You're sure? No, but thank you. It's very refreshing. And when Alex told me about you, you know, I was, like, really, really working. I know, But your authenticity and your curiosity and just that genuine excitement to learn is has been refreshing. so Thanks. Yeah,

Brock Goldberg:   2:4:25
That is as I'm ashamed of you guys in the beginning. You know, for me, going through this journey is really about bringing all of my, you know, biggest issues, regrets, thoughts, ideas to the forefront. Because I am personally at this point in my life where life is, I say this every fucking broadcast. I'm like a broken record. Life is like, it's a blink of an eye. And, um, not not everyone on the face of this planet has the opportunity that the three of us have just talking about, uh, you know what is going on in the world today on, you know, they don't have the same rights and freedoms that we do. So if you are put in a place like we are, um, you just gotta you gotta push through. Life can be fucking hard, but to live a life of no regrets is very hard. Um, but it is It is achievable because at the end of the day, you know, what would we got to show for? So thank you guys again. Seriously, appreciate it. I know this won't be the last time. All right. Thank you, everyone, for listening the back to your story. Have a good night.